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Peter Padfield reviews Norman Friedmans fire control book...

 
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NewGolconda



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Adealide Aus

PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Peter Padfield reviews Norman Friedmans fire control book... Reply with quote

Saw this, thought it was quite interesting, IMHO Padfields 40yo book on guns at sea, and its chapter on the development of fire control from pre dreadnought times has not yet been surpassed, at least a s a readable introduction to the topic.

He loves the book, in comparison to many of the readers here, who were quite dissapointed in Friedmans treatment of a number of issues, not the least the Brooks Sumida issues.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1844157016/ref=pe_28611_19511621_pe_vfe_t4

Link added, I will ignore the fact that Amazon appear to have screwed up the page and combined the entries for two quite different books, something I have never seen them do before.
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tone
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Joined: 29 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's unfortunate, as I think Padfield missed his chance to discuss fire control and has not undertaken a command of the topic in the ensuing years.

I enjoyed Padfield's book, and refer to it on occasion, but its primary value to me was a cursory discussion of German fire control methods and a single image of their dumaresq (without reference of any type, IIRC).

Why there are so many books with information on muzzle velocities and so few on where those muzzles would be directed and why?

tone
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Iain



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony, I feel you. Thanks to your research I know pretty well how the British controlled their guns, and I've got a good idea as to how the US Navy did it, but what about the French, Germans, Austrians, etc.?
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John H. Dulaney
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tone
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other nations suffer a comparative want of good source material.

For the Germans, much of the accessible data is from the few accounts (whose details are regarded as digression within the scope of the works) by Georg von Hase, gunnery officer of Derfflinger IIRC.

For instance, it is fairly well known that the Germans came to rely heavily on a Mittlungs Aparat (sp?), which allowed a semi-automated averaging of range cuts as they came in to derive a "mean range of the moment". No real detail on this is known to survive that I am aware of except that it allowed an operator to switch out the input of RFs who were deemed out of the norm.

While an overall command of the details of the British Dreyer tables and their use within the ships seem to mystify 99.9% of reasonably competent fans of this history (and all but one of its published authors), the data is fairly freely available and most of its content doesn't require much out-of-scope knowledge. What I would put in the latter segment (the truly hard to divine background facts) are things as obscure as the nonexistence of the best-described Dreyer tables (those in the 1918 handbook, with their "standard bearing plots") at any point in the war.

tone
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Iain



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this should be an excuse for me to go back to Europe and dig through variouse national archives and museums to figure this all out.

I wonder if the appropriate part of the German archives survived the fire bombing.
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John H. Dulaney
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tone
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the general belief is that the Germans destroyed most of their materials to keep the enemy from having it when the Armistice was signed.

That is not a certainty, but you can appreciate the degree to which language differences and subsequent hostilities and Soviet occupation and alignment really made it a blizzard of mystery.

If ever you go to the UK, it would be great to coordinate photo-taking methods of books. Simon has done a bit, as has Rob Brassington (whose methods are world-class), as have I. The things to keep in mind (which I have often failed at) are:

1. Bring a lot of analgesics -- your back will ache from repetitive crouching and page-turning

2. know how to use your camera

3. have a small transparent metric ruler to lay at the edge of sheets bearing scale drawings

4. it pays to have a tripod and a small photo stage. Rob has these and the results are well beyond even my best hand-done shots

tone
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Iain



Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't bring my photo booth as it is rather attached to the wall:



However, I can bring plenty of lights, and I would get a white sheet in-country to help diffuse the light. It can't be that much harder than shooting photos of N scale model trains (the above flat car is slightly less than an inch long).
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Jim Broshot



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Germans, much of the accessible data is from the few accounts (whose details are regarded as digression within the scope of the works) by Georg von Hase, gunnery officer of Derfflinger IIRC.


Liked these?

Kiel and Jutland ([1921])

http://www.archive.org/details/kieljutland00haseuoft

La bataille du Jutland, vue du Derfflinger; souvenirs anglo-allemands d'un officier de marine allemand. Traduit de l'allemand par Edmond Delage, annoté par le Service historique de l'État-major de la marine (1922)

http://www.archive.org/details/labatailledujutl00hase
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Harley



Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It was Jon Sumida who first suggested that the Royal Navy before the first world war conceived a tactic designed to lure the German High Seas Fleet into its own preferred medium-to-short range, there to annihilate it; Friedman's work virtually confirms this ground-breaking thesis ...


"Virtually confirms". I despair!

Simon
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tone
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
S: And that, my friend, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped.
F: This new learning amazes me, Professor. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.


tone
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Harley



Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought Holy Grail was easily the best of the Python films, special though the following two were.

Quote:
S: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
H: Bloody peasant!
S: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's
what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?




Simon
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NewGolconda



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see O'Hara has a review of this book in Warship.

Important, impressive in scope - sadly error bound. Which is all probably true dut doesnt helpt too much with the brooks-sumida pollen v dreyer issues.
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