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Mackensen class Battlecruisers

 
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AdmiralDad



Joined: 24 Mar 2007
Posts: 1
Location: Winchester, VA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Mackensen class Battlecruisers Reply with quote

Hello all! I am new to the Project and this is my 1st post.
I have long been thinking about the possible effect that the German Mackensen class battlecruisers (as well as the Baden Class Battleships) would have had on the actions during the Battle of Jutland. I have a couple of games to explore this, but it is more difficult for me than I imagined. If any of you could give me your opinions, I would appreciate them greatly. Thanks!!!!
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Gryf



Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am by no mean an expert on the subject, but certainly one I dabble with so I'll venture my thoughts on the issue.

Had the Mackensen's been available and attached the Hippers BC there would have been 9 ships to pummel Beaty's group rather than 5; a significant increase in 14" gunfire could have inflicted far more damage to the badly handled 5th Squadron. Outcome is the same I believe since Jellicoe deployed the Grand Fleet in picture perfect formation and drove the Germans from the seas.

More interesting, in my view, is the outcome if Sheer has the Bayerns and Sachsens in his OOB or Hipper with the designed Ersatz Yorck BCs. All of those ships were equal to the Queen Elizabeths in armament and all but the Ersatz Yorck were equal or better in protection (armor protection rating is a fickle thing).
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tone
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Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 479
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gryf wrote:

Had the Mackensens been available and attached the Hippers BC there would have been 9 ships to pummel Beaty's group rather than 5; a significant increase in 14" gunfire could have inflicted far more damage to the badly handled 5th Squadron. Outcome is the same I believe since Jellicoe deployed the Grand Fleet in picture perfect formation and drove the Germans from the seas.


I'll offer this perspective: would the battle have perhaps run the opposite course at some level of force balance? That is, would it start with a run to the NORTH and then continue with a run to the SOUTH as the GF is introduced into the battle before the HSF? I suppose if that had ever happened, the HSF would never have been sighted, as it would have turned for home immediately.

Still, at 9 on 9, with the Brits having 4 QEs there, I doubt honor would have made it easy to turn straight for a merger with the GF.

I suppose it is not too worthwhile to wonder on these possibilities, as the British were exceedingly careful to overmatch numbers in BCs and overall. To me, this suggests that any idle speculation on what would have happened if the Germans had X or Y is unrealistic unless one imagines what additional forces would be allotted their enemy in any hypothetical encounter.

tone
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GerritJ9



Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historically, the "Mackensen" or her sisters being at Jutland in 1916 simply was not on the cards at all...... but it is fair to say that "Bayern" missed taking part by only a few days. According to Marine-Arsenal Band 29 "Die Schlachtschiffe der Bayern-Klasse" page 36:
18/3/1916: "Indienststellung, Unterstellung in das Probefahrtverhältnis" or "Commissioned, placed in working-up".
31/5/1916 (note the date!!!): "Entlassung aus dem Probefahrtverhältnis" or "Released from working-up".
15/7/1916: "Einreihung in die Hochseeflotte (III. Geschwader)" or "Inducted into the High Seas Fleet".
That "Bayern" was only OFFICIALLY added to the HSF in July 1916 may well be caused by the results of Jutland i.e. many of the HSF's dreadnoughts requiring repairs and thus incapable of action and the fleet not able to sail in force.
Assuming "Bayern" had done her working-up in the Baltic based on Kiel, she would have had to proceed through the Kaiser Wilhelm Canal to join the HSF in the North Sea, which would have taken approximately two days in all. So had Jutland taken place three days later, or "Bayern" been released from working-up three days earlier, she would probably have taken part in Jutland. Whether her presence would have had any effect is something we will never know, but it is, I, think, safe to assume that a 38 cm hit on any British dreadnought would have done much more damage that a 30.5 cm hit. Had "Malaya"'s near-fatal hit on her 6" battery been a 38 cm rather that a 30.5 cm shell for instance, the greatly increased blast, splinter and flash effect would undoubtedly have resulted in her loss.
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Diederick44



Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 36
Location: South africa , free state

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:08 am    Post subject: range and accuracy Reply with quote

well i figure range and accuracy depends on who wins the fight , the germans had a better firing system but the numbers won the time , weather is another factor in winning or losing a fight , if germany had a few cruisers there maybe things would have been different , but its best to measure , accuracy over range and take into account fire power those are the 3 main things , but weather is the major key to winning a fight
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