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Norm Koger's Jutland
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jwduquette1



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Norm Koger's Jutland Reply with quote

Has anyone tried Norm Koger's new Jutland game yet? Is it worth purchasing?

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/Html/se_press_kit_v2.html
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gmeugens



Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm expecting to recieve it as a Christmas gift. If so once I try it out I'll post my thoughts

Gord M
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can download the demo as well.
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought the game, and I do have a couple of comments...

1. Play 'Duel'. Germans are way too accurate. They had the Empress of India straddled/on fire with opening salvo. Every time I've played. I played for about 30min last night and E of I managed to hit Konig once the range dropped below 10000yrds, but she was a mess - 2 turrets out of action, speed dropped to 12 kts, listing 2 deg, and casualties were mounting. I did try launching torpedoes and they almost hit Konig. By the time I ended the game (to go to bed at 0230), the range was down to about 4000yrds. I would have thought more hits would have happened.

2. View controls are somewhat frustrating. hopefully, as I get to know the hotkeys, it will get better.

3. Ships seem to fire full salvos, not half salvos, for spotting.

4. It has a mission editor, so I plan to try setting up 'what if' encounters. Wish it had the U.S./Japanese/Italian/etc. battleships - would make for some interesting match-ups

Please don't mad at me for my comments... I haven't played it long enough to give it a fair assessment yet. I'm just wondering if any one else has noticed these items. I think this game has some good value in it, once I'm through the learning curve. I can see myself getting into this game, which normal means my wife is going to kill me.

Glenn
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are going to have to balance the game....
After a 2hr 16min fictitious encounter, The Brit's were absolutely mauled.
8 German dreadnoughts (Helgoland Class and Westfalen class) Vs. 20 British dreadnoughts (Dreadnought, King Edward class pre dreadnought class, Bellerophon class, St. Vincent class, Neptune/Colossus/hercules, and Invincible class B.C's). After the action, 6 very damaged (out of ammo) Germans survived, and 8 British ships with heavy damage. It was very discouraging. Mind you, they have equipped the Germans with 13.5in and 12in main battery respectively, instead of 12in and 11in.

I am going to try the Queen Elizabeth and Revenge classes and see how they fair against the all powerful Helgolands and Westfalens. That should be a 10 vs 8 scenario.

By the way, game classed the slaughter I've described above as minor victory for the Germans.....

I could be wrong, but that does not seem right. Hopefully some one will set me straight....

thanks again
Glenn
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Harley



Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 131
Location: Great Britain

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was recently some discussion about a British Jutland movie being made. I sincerely hope they don't get the director of the Royal Naval Museum to advise on it, since he managed to produce this gem for the Sunday Express:

"these floating citadels fired their 12- and 14-inch guns in salvo in the heat of battle".

Perhaps the game developers took their cue from him being so wishy-washy with the facts?

Simon
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
3. Ships seem to fire full salvos, not half salvos, for spotting.


correction, they do fire half salvos for spotting. checked ammo level after mains were fired.

Q.E. class and Revenge class (plus HMS Canada) still didn't fair to well. Q.E sank, Barham had all main guns knocked out and was sinking (I left her in the battle line to act as a target at that point), and the Germans had 2 sunk, and 2 heading to port with 'moderate' damage. Lots of damage to British fleet, but at least the Germans were getting damaged. was almost a fair fight. HMS Canada was the only one not damaged. It was classified as a draw.

range was 20,000 - 18,500yrds (metres)

I'm going to try this one again, but retire the ships before the damage is too overwelming. I'm interested to see how the game classifies the outcome.

Glenn
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jwduquette1



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the commentary Rubberboat. Have you tried the Battlecruisers yet?
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jwduquette1 wrote:
Thanks for the commentary Rubberboat. Have you tried the Battlecruisers yet?


I quickly tried last night, with 5 German Battlecruisers vs every British Battlecruiser (Repulse and Renown as well) and 2 15in monitors. Derflinger had moderate damage, Australia was sunk (magazine explosion, I think). I didn't complete the battle as I was too tired.

I think the main problem with the game is that they have made the Germans overly accurate and the British ships thin skinned (tends to be a lot of magazine explosions). I've noticed that the shots as they fall (shorts and overs) do not seem to follow a 'ladder', for example, 1 salvo will be short, the next will be either shorter, way over, ahead or aft of the target. Very random) This is even worse for the Brits, almost like the spotter had too many pints of Guinness just before the battle. If the Germans find the range, game over. The British never quite consistently find the range. If you play vs the computer, the computer heads directly (85-95deg bearing) at your fleet, to close the range. In a sense, you have crossed the enemies 'T', and the British still cannot pummel the German's into oblivion.

I hope they correct these issues. I would play it on multiplayer, as long as I was the German side. Another issue is the main guns. So far, the British side has been correct for caliber, but the Germans have been off. For example, Derflinger class has 13.5 caliber and other B.C.'s have 12in instead of 11in. Germans didn't use 13.5's to begin with. I don't know whether they have taken caliber or weight of the shell, for that matter, into account when a shell strikes a ship. A 13.5in shell weighs about 1400lbs, an 11in round weighs considerably less.

They have a bug reporting site, I wonder if this info would be of interest to them, even if for accuracy's sake.

Glenn
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So far, the British side has been correct for caliber, but the Germans have been off. For example, Derflinger class has 13.5 caliber and other B.C.'s have 12in instead of 11in.


Sorry, that statement is incorrect. I misconverted metric to imperial. For the Germans, the caliber is listed in centimetres. 28cm is 11in and 30.5 is 12in, therefore they have the correct caliber main guns. They are still overly powerful, as they can put a QE class Battleship to the bottom with a couple of hits

Once again sorry about the (my) confusion,

Glenn
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jwduquette1



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank rubberboot. That is dissapointing regarding the imbalance in the game. Perhaps they will address this with a future patch.
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't played in a while, but last night (and a few updates later) I gave it another try as the British side, and I was able to decimate the Germans. It was the QE and Revenge Classes (plus HMS Canada) Vs. the Helgolands and Westfalen classes. Only the battleship Posen survived, with moderate damage. British lost the Revenge, and Resolution had moderate damage. These were the lead 2 ships in the line, so they bore the brunt of the exchange. If I had more time, I think I would have gotten the Posen as well.

I think they are getting the game balance tuned in now.

Glenn
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rubberboot



Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 32
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a chance to play a bit now, and it is getting better. on the SUBSIM Forum, a lot of others have had the same feelings as myself with regards to the over accuracy of the German side in the game. I think the developer has adjusted the fragility of the British side. I have managed to beat the German navy (Squadrons 1 and 3, circa 1916) using 5, 4ship divisions. When I say beat, read as meaning slaughtered. Basically, if you use your BC force (they'll chase them around the map) to draw them into your main battle fleets, they've had it. Just stay out of range of there guns. I used my 5 divisions separately, not in a single main battle line. It proved easier to keep out of range of the German weapons that way. I had damaged ships, nothing serious, and not 1 of the German ships survived. I need to come up with a good tactic to try as the German side. luckily, the AI does not try to do this same tactic when it is the Brits. BTW, it was 16 German Battleships Vs 20 British ships.

I still think they need to work on the fall of shot. Seems to random, and not following a 'ladder' to find the target. Also, the effects could be better. The only way to really know if your ship is fighting a fire is to go into the info screen and it tells you. There are visual cues, but they really leave a bit to desired. I've seen bigger flames and smoke on my barbecue. But all things concidered, I'm glad I bought the game. I'm glad that you can save the game, as the game time for the encounter listed above took over 6 hours to complete.

They are also adding a ship pack that will bring the US into the fray. Should be interesting.

Glenn
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GerritJ9



Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "13.5" and "16" refer to the guns' maximum elevation angle in degrees, NOT the gun calibre. You're not the only one to make this assumption- I made exactly the same mistake myself initially.
Originally the German ships had relatively low maximum elevations for their guns as it was- mistakenly as it turned out- assumed that visibility in the North Sea would always be poor. Perversely, the visibility during the Dogger Bank engagement was very good and Beatty's 13.5" battlecruisers could open fire at ranges that were beyond the reach of Hipper's ships. After Dogger Bank, the Kaiserliche Marine increased main gun elevation wherever possible.
The Kaiserliche Marine's "Elevation Champion" was "Goeben", whose main guns were given a maximum elevation of 22.5 degrees. The 12" guns of her most dangerous opponents, the Russian "Imperatritsa Marias", had a range of about 25,000 yards, and to counter this "Goeben's" 28 cm guns had their elevation increased to a much greater angle than the other German dreadnoughts. Strange, though, that "Goeben" was the only one so modified- surely the other dreadnoughts could also have benefited from this increase.
By the way, the 28 cm and 30.5 cm guns were powerful weapons- the 30.5 cm gun was superior to the British 12"guns and only slightly inferior to the 13.5"gun in performance.
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tone
Site Admin


Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 479
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did Goeben receive such a considerable modification while in (presumably) Turkish ports? Was the need realized after her arrival in Turkey and parts shipped overland to be installed?

tone
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